Evidence for a Global Flood About 5000 Years Ago

Copying this over from the Science Forum where I argue about various topics with various scientists and engineers on all kinds of topics …

Quote from: Dave Hawkins on 

so what we’ve got is…


I have several different lines of evidence pointing to a global flood about 5000 years ago.

Now, thanks to Pingu I’ve got a couple other pieces of data to deal with which do not seem to agree with this scenario.

But for now the weight of the evidence favors a flood about 5000 years ago, not 8000 years ago or 12,000 years ago so we go with that until we have more information.

We’ve been over this, Dave. Your “mountain of evidence” does not seem to have any individual item in it that holds up to scrutiny. Every time we look at one it falls apart. Some of them also contradict each other.

Incorrect.  Let’s look … here’s a few items …

1) Civilizations began about 5000 years ago.  The evidence?  You have to look no further than good ol’ Wikipedia …


The first civilization emerged in Sumer in the southern region of Mesopotamia, now part of modern-day Iraq. By 3000 BC, Sumerian city states had collectively formed civilization, with government, religion, division of labor and writing. Among the city states Ur was among the most significant.

In the 24th century BC, the Akkadian Empire[32][33] was founded in Mesopotamia. From Sumer, civilization and bronze smelting spread westward to Egypt, the Minoans and the Hittites.

The First Intermediate Period of Egypt of the 22nd century BC was followed by the Middle Kingdom of Egypt between the 21st to 17th centuries BC. The Sumerian Renaissance also developed c. the 21st century BC in Ur. Around the 18th century BC, the Second Intermediate Period of Egypt began. Egypt was a superpower at the time. By 1600 BC, Mycenaean Greece developed and invaded the remains of Minoan Civilization. The beginning of Hittite dominance of the Eastern Mediterranean region is also seen in the 1600s BC. The time from the 16th to the 11th centuries BC around the Nile is called the New Kingdom of Egypt. Between 1550 BC and 1292 BC, the Amarna Period developed in Egypt.

East of the Iranian world, was the Indus River Valley civilization which organized cities neatly on grid patterns.[34] However the Indus River Valley civilization diminished after 1900 BC and was later replaced with Indo-Aryan peoples who established Vedic Culture.

The beginning of the Shang dynasty emerged in China in this period, and there was evidence of a fully developed Chinese writing system. The Shang Dynasty is the first Chinese regime recognized by western scholars though Chinese historians insist that the Xia Dynasty preceded it. The Shang Dynasty practiced forced labor to complete public projects. There is evidence of massive ritual burial.

Across the ocean, the earliest known civilization of the Americas appeared in the river valleys of the desert coast of central modern day Peru. The Norte Chico civilization’s first city flourished around 3100 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history

2) Oldest living tree is about 5000 years old.  This according the the Rocky Mountain Tree Ring Research “Oldlist” which lists the oldest living tree as 4900 years old and has this to say …


A note here on radiocarbon ages of potentially very old trees. There has been a lot of focus on in the media recently about very old trees that are based on radiocarbon dating of a remnant piece of wood in association with a currently living tree that is assumed to have been an ancient stem that reproduced clonally. The most recent example is “Old Tjikko”, a Norway spruce (Picea abies) growing in Sweden. The living stem itself is only a few hundred years old, but there is a radiocarbon age of 9,500 years from dead wood present at its base. The living tree is argued to be only the most recent ramet of the much older individual tree genet. However, a 2016 study by G. L. Mackenthun instead argues that there is no evidence of genetic continuity between the dead and living wood portions of the tree, nor is there any evidence of clonal origination of Norway spruce in general. Thus, in the absence of any evidence of genetic continuity between dead and living portions of a stem, especially from a species otherwise not known to commonly reproduce clonally, I do not include such trees in Oldlist. http://www.rmtrr.org/oldlist.htm

3) 5000 year record of extreme floods and climate change in SW USA … not an 8000 year record … or a 12,000 year record, etc.


A 5000-year regional paleoflood chronology, based on flood deposits from 19 rivers in Arizona and Utah, reveals that the largest floods in the region cluster into distinct time intervals that coincide with periods of cool, moist climate and frequent El Niño events. The floods were most numerous from 4800 to 3600 years before present (B.P.), around 1000 years B.P., and after 500 years B.P., but decreased markedly from 3600 to 2200 and 800 to 600 years B.P. Analogous modern floods are associated with a specific set of anomalous atmospheric circulation conditions that were probably more prevalent during past flood epochs. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2883155?seq=1

4)  Monte Carlo simulations suggest the MRCA [Most Recent Common Ancestor of humans] was born surprisingly recently, perhaps even within the last 5,000 years, even for people born on different continents.[50] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve


. 2004 Sep 30;431(7008):562-6. doi: 10.1038/nature02842.
Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans
Douglas L T Rohde 1, Steve Olson, Joseph T Chang
Affiliations expand
PMID: 15457259 DOI: 10.1038/nature02842
If a common ancestor of all living humans is defined as an individual who is a genealogical ancestor of all present-day people, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) for a randomly mating population would have lived in the very recent past. However, the random mating model ignores essential aspects of population substructure, such as the tendency of individuals to choose mates from the same social group, and the relative isolation of geographically separated groups. Here we show that recent common ancestors also emerge from two models incorporating substantial population substructure. One model, designed for simplicity and theoretical insight, yields explicit mathematical results through a probabilistic analysis. A more elaborate second model, designed to capture historical population dynamics in a more realistic way, is analysed computationally through Monte Carlo simulations. These analyses suggest that the genealogies of all living humans overlap in remarkable ways in the recent past. In particular, the MRCA of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago in these models. Moreover, among all individuals living more than just a few thousand years earlier than the MRCA, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15457259/

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